News:


  • March 28, 2024, 06:50:44 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed  (Read 11443 times)

Online Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« on: March 27, 2016, 02:58:42 PM »
OK my ARF Ringmaster (Mike Griffin) is about ready

My NIB Fox 35 is about broke in

I know many here have experience with this plane and combo

AUW 27.5 Oz

I am posting this to three forums...Here, BHOTR, and CEF


Preferred line length
Preferred CG location
Prefered max elevator deflection----- I assume Mike used a 3 inch BC and I rigged to last hole on the Elevator Horn ((1 1/16th tall)) for a current max deflection of 39 degrees up and down .... I assume at the farthest hole from the hinge moving closer will be MORE deflection...... do not want to cut into wing to put BC stops... Thoughts?
Preferred prop (broke in with APC 10x4)
Preferred Fuel mix.....(broke in with 15% N, 25%Castor, 3% UCON LB 625 (( 28% total oil)) and methanol)
Preferred Handel spacing (assume 3 inch BC)...all my handles are NOT hard point.... Have an order in for a HP Handle but out of stock right now (Areo products Randy Smith)

Buddy Sean McEntee will do Maiden and trimming flights ( very cool guy and has a heavy, OIL soaked RM that he can still get 500 points out of with a ragged out Fox 35)

I have NOT flown a CL Plane in 26 months so zero muscle memory

I solicit any and all opinions and advice

This airplane is the one (first ever for me) that me and my dad built around 1958~ 1959 when I was 3.5 or 4 Years old

I would greatly prefer to not re-kit this model so now that we can all share via internet, I think I can (with your help) eliminate any initial mistakes

Should I just bite the re gasket bill and install a anti burp plug from the get go or Hope my engine does not quit in a bad flight position?

TIA

Fred
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2016, 03:05:13 PM »
Hard point handles are easy to build.

That's way too much throw.

I'd bring the handle spacing in until your comfortable max hand deflection ends up in +/- 20 degrees elevator deflection.  It sounds like Mike put in an unfortunate amount of elevator throw.  It might even be worth while making an elevator horn extension (if it's not removable) or replacing the horn with the longest you can find.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2016, 03:27:42 PM »
Thanks Tim...  was thinking same from all the other posts I searched

May just cut a thin piece of aluminum 2 inches long and screw it with servo screws into the current horn and find a location to limit ravel down to 20 degree range

The other though is typical 4-40 or 6-32 long bolt and DuBro easy just horn brackets I have on hand like on many combat planes

hard to get just over hinge line though

This is fun for me plane and will never see a contest or anything that looks like complete pattern
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Dane Martin

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2804
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2016, 03:45:53 PM »
My opinion on the throw is : if you leave it alone physically, and add stops then the initial movements of the elevator will be fast. So the plane might feel sensitive right off of neutral. So if you add stops, maybe set the CG slightly more forward.

CG point, for an absolute beginner, .75 - 1.0 inch
Line length with a Fox 35, probably 60'
Prop.... 10x5 maybe? That seemed to be my favorite.


But thinking about a hard point handle... Maybe try a 3 inch ez just first. If the controls are going to be sensitive, maybe the over hang will help deaden that feeling?

Offline Lyle Spiegel

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 505
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2016, 05:43:09 PM »
Comment about muscle memory- its like riding a bike, you never forget. I was away for over 20 years. Got back to flying with the ARF Nobler, Fox 35, RC idle bar plug, 10% nitro with 29% castor, 10 x5 prop. Make sure tank is securely mounted so no vibration induced fuel foaming with setup for uniflow, no muffler pressure. Maybe a few washers under front motor lugs to give se offset for better line tension.
For first few flights only fill 2- 2.5 oz, until you are ok going around without any dizziness.Keep eyes focused on airplane, not the background scenery
Good luck.
Lyle Spiegel AMA 19775

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2016, 08:56:00 PM »
I have 4 profile Ringmasters(s-1 and Estes).   I fly with E-Z Just style handle.   All have the tall control horn.  The bell crank I use the inner most hole.  One of my Ringmasters does not like the Hard point,  the rest it seems doesn't matter.   I fly using .015 cable 60 foot center of plane to center of handle, + or - which ever handle I use.  Fox .35 Stunt with stock muffler and 10-5 power point prop.    They are powered with mentioned Fox .35 Stunt,  Fox .25 old and new version and Brodak .25.  Sean is a great young man and can help you a lot.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Chris Fretz

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1270
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2016, 04:41:36 PM »
What does a Hard Point handle do for you that a EZ adjust handle does not an vise versa?
Formerly known as #Liner
AMA 1104207
Advanced

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13716
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2016, 08:47:40 AM »
Should I just bite the re gasket bill and install a anti burp plug from the get go or Hope my engine does not quit in a bad flight position?

   Gasket?  I have taken them apart dozens of times and never had a failed gasket.

   Yes, you should put in the bypass stuffer, there is no reason not to,

    Brett

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2016, 02:29:49 PM »
What does a Hard Point handle do for you that a EZ adjust handle does not an vise versa?

It is the control sensitivity of the plane.   The first Ringmaster was built by some one else and I just finished it.  It was good with the E-Z Just type handle,  almost dorked it with hard point.   Had to go to the widest spacing of the clips on the HP.    Of course it is the heaviest of the 4.   The rest it doesn't seem to matter which handle I use.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13716
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2016, 09:03:06 PM »
What does a Hard Point handle do for you that a EZ adjust handle does not an vise versa?

  Two things (at least) - you can adjust the spacing (which is critical on a Ringmaster, as noted above), and you get far more positive control because the cables in the EZ-just flex. The EZ-Just Hot Rock *shape* is great and is mostly replicated on the Fancher hard point handle.

   The single most important thing for the Ringmaster is to get the elevator response slowed down enough to allow it to be controlled. The stock system is *far* too sensitive and is the major reason that the airplane has a terrible reputation. You probably only need +- 1/2" of travel with full hand motion. This is one of the very few cases where something is more important than the engine, and its even more critical with a Fox 35, since it will be much more likely to stall the wing than a better engine.
   
     Brett

Online Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2016, 12:59:20 PM »
Sean McEntee flew my RM today on .012 67" lines and it was so so
15%N 28% oil and APC 10x4 prop

Moved the tank up a bit and a little better
still a little light on the lines for insides....saw and could not correct the wing warp at the field so added a cardboard trim tab....but still a little light so no real wring out with full pattern
New Fox 35 behaved and started and ran fine with no burp plug (no outsides tried)
Sean took off and let me come in and fly the tank out... no tricks...just level 5.5 min laps with a little climb and dive... leaned out...quit and I landed it with out incident... NO dizzy in the circle, but once on the ground I could not walk a straight line if my life depended on it....grin

Took a long while for the adrenaline to subside and we went home with an intact model

Can't wait until I fly it again...really wish my front yard was not ringed with High tension  power lines

Thank you Sean

Thank you Dan for a great son

Thanks to all who put up with my constant questions

I love CL flying!!!
 
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2016, 04:26:52 PM »
Sean was taught by his Dad and is one of the best.  Even if he does wear skirts(kilts) once in a while. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2016, 04:42:54 PM »
Take about five feet off of those lines and it won't be so light.
Chris...

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6823
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2016, 05:05:17 PM »
   I am wondering if that is a typo, the 67 foot lines. All the excitement and juices flowing of getting a new model in the air after so long of a layoff, and one could expect the fingers not to work correctly!
   Good luck with it and hang in there!
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Phil Spillman

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 803
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2016, 07:06:02 PM »
My Ringmaster, an original S-1 from Sterling with the original cast Iron wood, flies great on 58" lines .015 eyelet to eyelet. My Fox has an ST NVA, and a Magic Blue Head from Tom Muggleston. It runs well on 5 or 10% Nitro fuel with 12/12 Synthetic/ Castor Oil fuel. Its been flying this way since 1992 when I finished it! The body has gained noticeable weight but it just keeps giving me hours and hours of smiles and fun!

I use an adjustable handle with the leadouts spaced under 3". I've limited the throw of the elevator by having made a "L" shaped bracket out of scrap Aluminum through which the pushrod passes with wheel collars on each side of the bracket to limit the throw. It may look crude but it works! You might try a cotter pin as well CAY'd in with the wheel collars fore and aft. Put the collar on the side toward the nose of the plane before you glue the post to the fuselage!!! Don't ask me why I say this!!!

Try to make your tank adjustable; most likely it will like to be close to 3/8" up from the centerline of the engine. Use an idle bar plug such as Sig's g 003. If you can't get a Magic Blue Head try one of RSM's side angled silver heads for the Fox. A stuffer back plate would be nice as well.

These suggestions have worked for me over the years. In the end you may want to try an LA .25 or and FP.20 or .25. Likely harder to get now since they're not imported nor made anymore.

Phil Spillman 
Phil Spillman

Online Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2016, 08:27:38 AM »
Thanks for all the suggestions

Sean probably told me .015s and I miss interpreted but I am sure of the length

I changed to a longer elevator horn and reduced total deflection
 She has an adjustable lead out guide we have not fussed with

We need make wing fly level upright and inverted....first
Address the light lines on maneuvers... probably will be better on shorter lines with faster laps once I get my circle legs and inner ear sorted

we currently like the fuel tank location as it does a rather good 4-2-4 transition

many options

Prop
Line length
tip weight
Lead out skew
Engine offset...last resort (Sean does not like the idea and prefers zero zero on engine and rudder)


I weather cooperates we will try again this coming weekend
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13716
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2016, 09:48:17 AM »
My opinion on the throw is : if you leave it alone physically, and add stops then the initial movements of the elevator will be fast. So the plane might feel sensitive right off of neutral. So if you add stops, maybe set the CG slightly more forward.

     Please don't do that. A fast system with stops just turns it into a toggle switch. You can have both uncontrollable radii, and still be able to get into the coffin corner where you run out of control, at the same time. You want to slow the system down and make it adjustable, so you can adjust the control speed.

    It needs to be slowed down *drastically* from what it shows on the original S-1 Ringmaster plans. Doubly so if you use a Fox/McCoy, etc, because it will tolerate even less deflection - and you have to run it right to the limit. You want to be able reliably find the limit, and you can't do that with the super-fast controls. With a Veco 19, 15FP, 20FP, etc, you can tolerate a lot more deflection and the controls can be faster, but still *far* less than the original kit arrangement.

     Brett

Offline Dane Martin

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2804
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2016, 10:01:51 AM »
     Please don't do that. A fast system with stops just turns it into a toggle switch. You can have both uncontrollable radii, and still be able to get into the coffin corner where you run out of control, at the same time. You want to slow the system down and make it adjustable, so you can adjust the control speed.

    It needs to be slowed down *drastically* from what it shows on the original S-1 Ringmaster plans. Doubly so if you use a Fox/McCoy, etc, because it will tolerate even less deflection - and you have to run it right to the limit. You want to be able reliably find the limit, and you can't do that with the super-fast controls. With a Veco 19, 15FP, 20FP, etc, you can tolerate a lot more deflection and the controls can be faster, but still *far* less than the original kit arrangement.

     Brett

Right, i agree with don't add stops. But Fred said he didn't want to do wing surgery. Sounds like the overall travel is just way too high

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6823
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2016, 06:08:57 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions

Sean probably told me .015s and I miss interpreted but I am sure of the length

I changed to a longer elevator horn and reduced total deflection
 She has an adjustable lead out guide we have not fussed with

We need make wing fly level upright and inverted....first
Address the light lines on maneuvers... probably will be better on shorter lines with faster laps once I get my circle legs and inner ear sorted

we currently like the fuel tank location as it does a rather good 4-2-4 transition

many options

Prop
Line length
tip weight
Lead out skew
Engine offset...last resort (Sean does not like the idea and prefers zero zero on engine and rudder)


I weather cooperates we will try again this coming weekend

   If the 67 foot line length is for real, then that is where you should start and get it down to at least 62 feet and more likely 60 feet. Try Sean's lines from his model if he brings them. 67 feet is just way too long for a Ringmaster even in perfect trim. The longer control horn should do the trick with the control speed. I've reworked older Ringmasters with light switch fast controls and made them flyable with a longer horn.
  Keep us posted on the next test session.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2016, 09:36:58 AM »
As Dan says,  longer control horns.   Easy to make out of aluminum angle with a hack saw and metal files.  If your worried about the push rod hole wearing out, go to a ball link set up.  Do a search on ball links.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Sean McEntee

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 873
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2016, 10:33:14 PM »
  Try Sean's lines from his model if he brings them. 67 feet is just way too long for a Ringmaster even in perfect trim.   Keep us posted on the next test session.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

    We did use my lines.

    Back when I built my ringmaster (one of the early RSM kits) it came out lighter than anticipated at 26oz and, coupled with an L&J Fox 35, I knew it was going to move.  Could have put 25 on it but I felt at the time that a ringmaster needs a Fox on it!  I put longer-than-norm lines on it to run the motor at a speed that it liked while keeping the lap times down, and it measures out at 67' nose to handle.

    A few 500+ point scores and some wins in classic against some stiff Texas/Oklahoma competition later, I've hypothesized that a small model on long lines gives the impression that its turning tighter than it really is.  While being a light ringmaster, it is still just a ringmaster and wont do 5' turns.  Again its just a theory but its been working for almost 10 years!  I tried shorter lines on a whim one time but went back shortly after.  I use THE same lines on my Frisky Pete powered by an OS25LA that, again, delivers more power than it needs.  I'm sure ill hear about using the same lines on multiple models from the old man  :P but I was in a hurry to get the model done.  I got lucky building it and didn't need to touch the handle, and have since been too busy/lazy/combination thereof to cut new lines for it.  H^^

    Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, Fred only had .018 and .021 diameter lines from his combat stuff so I brought mine along.  We got his set up exactly like mine and it flies just like mine except it had an inboard roll due to a slight warp in the wing that I didn't catch until we were out in the field and were ill-equipped to fix it there, though we got it straightend out once we got home, but it was good enough for the intents and purposes of the day.

     Folks:  The tips are always appreciated but keep in mind that were not trimming an Impact to take to the Nat's next week--just some lazy sunday sport flying.  Model flies great minus the warp.  Only changes from here will be for "creature comfort".  Controls could probably be slowed a bit, as I like my controls a bit quicker than most.

     Fred:  It feels light on the line tension for two reasons.  One is that warp.  Well keep trimming on it when I get back but once the wings are level and everything is dialed in, it wont feel quite as light when you raise the nose.  The second is the fact that it is not a screaming combat ship.  :)  Stunt models aren't able to do upwind maneuvers very well so the line tension isn't as significant.  Start wingovers maneuvers upwind, do everything else with the wind to your back, and it will stay out there.  If you get some .015" lines and want to take them down a few feet, that's cool, just do it a one or two feet at a time.  You can always shorten lines, but they have yet to invent a device that will make lines longer (I could write a book full of dry but informative parental stunt tips passed down to me  LL~ )
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 11:12:36 PM by Sean McEntee »

Offline Sean McEntee

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 873
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2016, 11:01:18 PM »
Sean was taught by his Dad and is one of the best.  Even if he does wear skirts(kilts) once in a while. H^^

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2016, 10:14:25 AM »
Way to go Sean. H^^ H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Online Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2016, 03:00:36 PM »
Sean McEntee and I flew 4 planes for 12 flights yesterday Sunday 22 April 2016

for all flights we used his .015 x 67 foot lines and handle

Humidity all over the map here for last 8 weeks and no way to properly remove the ARF Ring Master warp so I added a aluminum trim tab to outer wing. The non muffled old Fox with APC 10x4, 15%n 25% c started and ran good.... Sean was happy with it once we adjusted the trim tab to get it level upright and inverted

Sean flew his beat up oil soaked RM and only issue was soccer field kids who made both of us nervous .... in flight, this plane started sounding weird and was due to loose motor mount

Sean also flew his other plane ( he told me about the scratch build but I forget what model it is) OS 25 on the nose and watching him go through the stunt pattern was fun.... BUT weight box lid fell off and we walked the circle several times finding it

Moment of truth needed--- so I fuel up the RST/RM variant for OS LA 25 muffled maiden flight.... easy start, smooth take off.. flew fine as built with no bad habits or tweaks needed.

Second flight set RPM a bit faster and the 10x4 prop and 30oz plane flew a very respectable pattern Sean only noting the outsides were a bit unstable compared to insides . We think it is mostly the low hung exposed controls...Lap times a bit brisk at 4.8 sec

Sean is heading off to Middle east next few weeks to do his thing for God and Country and I will miss his help and friendship immensely...most likely his return will see him posted elsewhere in the USA

The ARF RM will stay home as my stooge, ah err, wife and I play airplane with the Rugged Stunt Trainer / Ring master on week day mornings with NO soccer field kids (hopefully)

If you want a fast build and right off the plan good flying plane, I highly recommend the Phil Cartier Core-House Rugged Stunt Trainer (RST) with OS LA 25 combo and RSM short Duralum landing gear with 1 3/4 to 2 1/4 wheels

The OS LA 25 likes 10% N 22% oil (50/50) and a 9x4 or 10x4 prop at 9800~10100 launch RPM

OH sorry ...we were much too engrossed with flying and managing the little people to take any video or photos

BUT we did both went home with BSEG.....
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: S-1 and Fox 35 advice needed
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2016, 06:23:26 PM »
That is great you got some good flying time together.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here