Author Topic: Combat Kittens (Read 23455 times)

Andre Ming · « **on:** September 02, 2015, 04:04:56 PM »

My 1/2 A "memory machine" is the Top Flite Combat Kitten. A pair of Kittens were my first "flying wing" combat planes way back in the mid-60s. Back then, I used a Golden Bee. Last Kittens I built were back in the 1980s to use as a combat trainers for some young men I was teaching to fly at the time. One survived and has been kept ever since.

A several years ago, I decided to pull off the old rotting silkspan covering, and refurbish it using Monocote and resanding/refinishing the wood with Sig butyrate dope. Below is a picture I snapped a few years ago of the result.

As you can see, it has a Black Widow on it... but reed valves are a bit too finicky to suit me anymore... so I'm wondering:

Have any of you have ever built a Kitten with a TeeDee .049 on bladder pressure?

The reed valve Kittens were all flown on 27.5' Dacron lines. If I build a Kitten with a bladder pressurized TD... think I need to fly it on the .012" 35' lines we used to use for 1/2A combat?

What say, oh ye 1/2A'ers???

Jim Roselle · « **Reply #1 on:** September 02, 2015, 06:27:47 PM »

Andre,

I don't have Combat Kitten experiance but I have flown a Lil' Satan with a bladdered Tee Dee. I use 42" of spider wire 15lb test.

I'm glad you posted this, I'm currently rebuilding a Lil' Satan that was given to me. It had a ratty monocote job, thank goodness it hadn't been flown or it would be fuel soaked. I taught myself the basics of control line with a 'satan and plan on making this one a "showpiece" now that I don't poke planes into the ground every time I fly. I looked up the Combat Kitten plan on outerzone to see how you did that clean elevator installation and plan on replicating it on this model.

Thanks!

Jim

bob whitney · « **Reply #2 on:** September 02, 2015, 06:41:49 PM »

the golden Bee ,Black widow had a tank behind the engine which moved the engine further forward ,be sure to check the balance

in my younger days i built a baby streak and mounted the TD up against the fuse on a couple of beam mounts . first flight ,the launch was the last time i had control of it . did get it down ,went home and made longer mounts ,after that it WAs a fun airplane

Andre Ming · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2015, 07:50:34 PM »

Hi Jim!

Glad you found a nugget in my post! A couple years after the Kittens I built a Lil' Satan with a hopped-up Golden Bee (twin port cylinder) on it. That thing flew like a banshee.

Hi Bob!

I "think" I have the old Kitten plans up in the attic. However, I distinctly remember the plans showing two options for engines:

* Engine w/integral tank. (ala' Golden Bee/Black Widow/etc)

* Beam mounted using a radial mount. (TeeDee w/radial mount.)

For the beam mounted engine, the nose pod was to use the longer length. (The mount pod layers were die cut longer for this option.) For an integral tank, the nose pod was to be cut back as illustrated in my photo above.

If I do this, I will either:

* Purchase a Combat Kitten kit off eBay.

* Scratch build one using D-tube construction in lieu of the formed LE and TE.

So many things on my "want to do" list, so little time!

Ken Burdick · « **Reply #4 on:** September 04, 2015, 02:22:22 PM »

Build Gene Pape's Widow Satan and the plans are free.
http://flyinglines.org/kb.widosatan.html
they fly great.

K

Andre Ming · « **Reply #5 on:** September 04, 2015, 05:49:48 PM »

Hi Dennis!

Thanks much for the offer, however it may be a bit premature for me to sink $$ into this TeeDee Combat Kitten idea that I'm kicking around. I also need to get back up into the attic to see what all is still left up there. I've been on a spending spree of late (like a Johnson 36BB CS and other things), so my hobby funds are a mite depleted!

Ken:

Thanks for the link. I remember surfing onto that site one night when surfing for control line stuff. I figure "one of these days" I'd also like to have a Lil' Satan in my mini-collection of 1/2A airplanes. The Lil' Satan was a TINY little airplane!

I have a neat story about a Lil' Satan... maybe one of these days I'll get motivated to share it.

All fer now!

Andre

kenneth cook · « **Reply #6 on:** September 06, 2015, 12:53:14 AM »

I built the Combat Kitten using a TD and I still have it. I made a huge mistake in covering it with silkspan. I will never do that again. I put a metal tank inside the wing. That would be mistake #2. I never had successful runs using the TD on a hard tank for a quick maneuvering plane. It tends to go over lean through the flight. Setting it off rich helps but eventually it begins to struggle. I tried backplate pressure, crankcase pressure and all of this turned out to be a huge headache and the plane was hung up. I'm going to get a bladder tube inside the wing. The plans show a Cox RR-1 or a TD. Andre, I see no need for a D tube wing here. That would add more weight to the plane which is not needed. The interlocking spar and ribs on the Kitten essentially jigged itself when fit dry. The Combat Kitten in my opinion flies way better than the Satan. It will fly comfortably using 42' lines without a issue. If you want a bit more excitement using 35' would work as well.

Andre Ming · « **Reply #7 on:** September 06, 2015, 07:49:35 AM »

Hi Ken C.!

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

Yes, a bladder tube w/surgical tubing bladder is what I intend to do.

As for my use of the term "D tube" construction: I had forgotten about the spar arrangement of the Kitten, which would ad quite a bit of flex resistance to the wing in turns. In that case, I would simply replace the formed LE with a balsa stick sanded/shaped into the profile of the original. There's got to be a way... just have to look it over once I get more serious with the idea.

The reed valve series Cox engines are "okay"... but in the past I never did get an arrangement (conventional mounted tank, sidewinder tank/needle, et al) that allowed for truly dependable fuel delivery when maneuvering. It may/may not draw fuel and remain running during inside/outside loops and such... so the reed engines would often quit during maneuvers.

35' lines it will be, as per the same AMA rules we flew under on my other vintage 1/2A Combat planes. Had a lot of fun and tore up a lot of 1/2A airplanes flying with the OKC Gang back in the day!

Here's some pics of some of the OKC gang "back when". First pic, me on the right holding my 1/2A Lil' Nemesis, friend Alvin Meyer on the left. Other pics: Allen Bumbaugh on the left, Rene' Zeldenthues on the right.

Ken Burdick · « **Reply #8 on:** September 06, 2015, 12:33:20 PM »

Perhaps the most famous match involving a Combat Kitten involved two world F2D champions. It was at the Nats and was Mike Willcox's first entry in a contest. The Cox company was having a special award for 1/2A combat which I think had not been flown there before. I think Mike didn't know how to take off by himself before the contest, but "dad" worked with him. His first match was with a kid named Tommy Fluker........

Ken

Andre Ming · « **Reply #9 on:** September 06, 2015, 01:10:09 PM »

Okay... so you have my attention... then what??

Ken Burdick · « **Reply #10 on:** September 07, 2015, 09:23:19 AM »

then Tommy Fluker went on to become the first F2D world champion from the U.S.A. and Later, Mike Willcox became the second USA World Champion. I don't remember who won the nats match....pretty sure Fluker was a Sr. and Mike a Jr, so they likely both won in their respective classes. I'm also pretty sure it was "mom" who practiced with Emo to be able to fly out of a launch at the contest.

Andre Ming · « **Reply #11 on:** September 07, 2015, 12:28:31 PM »

Much obliged, there Ken!

(Said in my best Paul Harvey voice)

And NOW I know... the REST of the story!!

James Holford · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2015, 08:26:53 AM »

Would be so nice if this kit was reproduced with lighter lazer cut balsa.......... Pat King you listenin lol

Andre Ming · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2015, 03:32:46 PM »

Late reply (been busy):

Ken C:

Thanks for the input! Indeed "one of these days" me building a Kitten with a TD on bladder ought to be badder n' madder than a Satan with a Widow.

Andre Ming · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2016, 04:35:16 AM »

Update:

Found and purchased a NIB set of "Combat Kittens". As threatened, one is destined to be powered by a Tee Dee on bladder pressure.

So... hopefully in another two years or so I just might have it started!

(I move at the speed of cold molasses!)

James Holford · « **Reply #15 on:** October 11, 2016, 05:49:28 AM »

Lmao!!!!!!÷÷

Chancey Chorney · « **Reply #16 on:** October 11, 2016, 09:42:15 PM »

Quote from: Andre Ming on October 11, 2016, 04:35:16 AM

Update:

Found and purchased a NIB set of "Combat Kittens". As threatened, one is destined to be powered by a Tee Dee on bladder pressure.

So... hopefully in another two years or so I just might have it started!

(I move at the speed of cold molasses!)

I like it. Sure we aren't related? Sounds exactly like what I do.

kenneth cook · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2016, 03:48:07 AM »

My Kitten is on the bench currently. I took out a rib or two and put a bladder tube in the wing. It will stick out high and low of the wing. Unfortunately, the plane took a ground strike with the tin tank due to a bad run. It broke the leading edge and spar on the outboard wing. Essentially it was glued back together. I had to remove some of these repairs to get the tube in the wing. The tube itself glue to the spar and engine nacelle should offer the strength needed. The TD should work well, but I've had nothing but problems using Dave Brown mounts. They vibrate, break and cause nothing but a headache for me. I recently purchased a Texas Timers backplate mount which will greatly assist. I would've built 1/4" x 1/4" maple mounts from the start if I knew I was going this route. I should be taking to the air in a week or two and looking forward to it. Ken

Paul Smith · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2016, 08:11:38 AM »

There's hardly enough work to justify a kit. If I wanted build one I would do like the Brodak Lightning Streak, which is substituting regular wood for the machined LE & TE. These were a great feature on the Flite Streak, Combat Cat, and Kitten, but impossible without massive tooling cheap balsa.

This setup served me well. A pacifier in a compartment made with FasCal and .012" x 35' lines. When they went to 42' in most contests it still worked OK. I won the AMA Nats last time I flew it.

pat king · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2016, 02:24:28 PM »

I have started a layout of the Combat Kitten. A laser cut kit would be in the $30.00 range. Let me know if there is interest.

Pat

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #20 on:** October 12, 2016, 05:51:46 PM »

Quote from: pat king on October 12, 2016, 02:24:28 PM

I have started a layout of the Combat Kitten. A laser cut kit would be in the $30.00 range. Let me know if there is interest.

Pat

Is that a "double kit" or a single?
Phil

James Holford · « **Reply #21 on:** October 12, 2016, 06:41:34 PM »

Im interested!

pat king · « **Reply #22 on:** October 12, 2016, 09:22:16 PM »

Quote from: Phil Krankowski on October 12, 2016, 05:51:46 PM

Is that a "double kit" or a single?
Phil

That would be a single kit. If I could get orders for 1,000 kits I could most likely sell a double kit for that price. One of the big problems with our kits is the fact that there is no volume.
I am working on an aircraft right now that will require 3 different Carbide tipped router bits, and two fixtures to produce the kit. My prices are not making much profit. I can guarantee that no one is going to get rich selling C/L kits.

Pat

Jim Roselle · « **Reply #23 on:** October 12, 2016, 11:00:53 PM »

Quote from: pat king on October 12, 2016, 02:24:28 PM

I have started a layout of the Combat Kitten. A laser cut kit would be in the $30.00 range. Let me know if there is interest.

Pat

Yes!

pat king · « **Reply #24 on:** October 13, 2016, 10:21:57 AM »

Here are what the plans look like. The plans need a bunch of text, the cutting files are not drawn. I will go with the $30.00 price for the first kits, if that is more than it needs to be I will make refunds to the buyers, if it is too low "my bad".
Full size .pdf files of the plans will be $5.00 .

Pat

James Holford · « **Reply #25 on:** October 13, 2016, 11:02:57 AM »

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 13, 2016, 11:22:22 AM »

Pat

Your efforts are always very very good and I want in on this kit

I have an original double kit and the parts die crush and wood selection are horrid (IMO)

I got really spoiled with the wood selection, usually better building layout, usually better plans, fit of all parts, and overall easy building and generally better version of the model from all the current usual suspect cottage industry guys

Yes there is the True Believer, Nostalgia, I just got to suffer through this just like I did in 5th grade, argument---- for building the Sterling, Top Fight ...yada yada Kit....but many of my models are built for nostalgia and the fun of it...maybe flown once or twice

I recently spent way too much time building an original old skool voodoo kit and the silk n dope crushed it before I even got to see the final model

My bad...but a lot of antique "wood in a bag" was the result of about 30 hours of my time

None of the full or short kits I got from Pat Johnston, Eric Rule, Pat King, Walt Umland, and a few I certainly am forgetting...OH yes Minestrone Modeler--- but there are a couple of more...just plain CRS

Anyway. EVERY one of my current Laser cut kits was easy to build... and none of the grief of the (MY OPINION) crap we got fed in the 60s~70s ( my building and flying years before this retirement trip back down memory lane)

Pat if I had my druthers I would like to buy a perfect Laser kit with one TF Combat Kitten and one TF Combat Cat

Once built and flown for fun to be set with the un-built origin TF kit in the display case

pat king · « **Reply #27 on:** October 13, 2016, 02:28:10 PM »

Does anyone have a set of Combat Cat plans they will loan to me? They will be returned unharmed.

Thanks, Pat

pat king · « **Reply #28 on:** October 13, 2016, 04:25:45 PM »

The Combat Kitten is ready. See my section in the Vendors Corner.

Pat

James Holford · « **Reply #29 on:** October 14, 2016, 04:51:02 AM »

Let me see how much I spend tomorow at the Baton Rouge event

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #30 on:** October 14, 2016, 07:09:55 AM »

Quote from: pat king on October 13, 2016, 02:28:10 PM

Does anyone have a set of Combat Cat plans they will loan to me? They will be returned unharmed.

Thanks, Pat

I have a double kit that still has the parts for one of the models and the included plans/instructions. They are 1/3 full size. If any or all of this would be helpful contact at:

mikeainia@windstream.net

to avoid cluttering up the bandwidth here.

Andre Ming · « **Reply #31 on:** October 19, 2016, 03:45:30 PM »

Received my Combat Kittens kit today.

Wow... REALLY nice and totally untouched kit. The kit-included hardware is still in the sealed plastic bag! The box is in very good condition, too. Very little age-yellowing of the white paper. Me thinks it's WAY too nice to tear into and build. Soooo... I'm a'thinkin' I may need to seriously consider the Combat Kitten repli-kit that Pat is offering.

Andre

john e. holliday · « **Reply #32 on:** October 19, 2016, 04:33:04 PM »

You won't regret doing it if you do.

pat king · « **Reply #33 on:** October 24, 2016, 05:45:47 PM »

Quote from: Fredvon4 on October 13, 2016, 11:22:22 AM

Pat if I had my druthers I would like to buy a perfect Laser kit with one TF Combat Kitten and one TF Combat Cat

Once built and flown for fun to be set with the un-built origin TF kit in the display case

The Combat Cat is available in my section of the vendors corner.

pat king · « **Reply #34 on:** October 29, 2016, 08:27:17 PM »

There has been a $1.00 price reduction on the Combat Kitten kits.

Pat

James Holford · « **Reply #35 on:** November 15, 2016, 08:56:18 AM »

Received my kitten yesterday!!!!! Gorgeous Lazer cut wood and great plans!!@!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

James Holford · « **Reply #36 on:** November 22, 2016, 06:01:40 PM »

First kit that I never had to use pins. Fit was.great!!!!

Just gotta mount motor,cover, and fly!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Chancey Chorney · « **Reply #37 on:** November 22, 2016, 06:56:12 PM »

Looks very nice. Some clear covering with that natural wood look would look awesome...

john e. holliday · « **Reply #38 on:** November 23, 2016, 02:21:12 PM »

No pins! Surly you jest, no I didn't call you schirley. As I've said before laser cutting will spoil a person and Pat's kits do a great job of that. Looks great so far.

badbill · « **Reply #39 on:** December 11, 2016, 12:33:47 PM »

Here's mine. Hasn't flown yet, maybe next weekend. Excellent kit from PDK !

john e. holliday · « **Reply #40 on:** December 11, 2016, 05:57:31 PM »

Looks great.

pat king · « **Reply #41 on:** December 11, 2016, 07:58:12 PM »

Looks like FUN to me! Have a blast!

Pat

James Holford · « **Reply #42 on:** December 12, 2016, 04:40:18 PM »

Well done Bill.... bill did you use the engine mount nuts that came with it and if so how did you set them

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

pat king · « **Reply #43 on:** December 12, 2016, 04:56:23 PM »

Before I bought the arbor press, I used a vise to seat blind nuts.

Pat

badbill · « **Reply #44 on:** December 13, 2016, 04:27:41 AM »

I did use them, and used my vise to seat them. BUT if I had to do it over again, I would put the motor on with small screws.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #45 on:** December 13, 2016, 08:27:05 AM »

When I set blind (T) nuts I clearance drill the holes for a snub fit. Then, using epoxy glue, tap the nuts into the wood. I think forcing a big thing into a small hole creates stress that I don't want.

Also, I put lubricated bolts in the holes keep them from getting buggered-up.

I agree that on a small project, lag screws are usually adequate.

James Holford · « **Reply #46 on:** December 13, 2016, 08:49:03 AM »

I'm gona mark and drill holes.. recess the back of the firewall so the blind nut sit in just a bit to make a smooth joint between firewall and "fuse"

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

badbill · « **Reply #47 on:** December 13, 2016, 02:20:15 PM »

I recessed the wood block for the blind nuts. It worked fine, but allen head servo screws would have also.

david beazley · « **Reply #48 on:** December 13, 2016, 03:15:11 PM »

I use my drill press to seat blind nuts. Close the chuck all the way down without a bit and use it like an arbor press.

badbill · « **Reply #49 on:** December 24, 2016, 03:22:04 PM »

Flew this little gem 7 times today, just couldn't stop it is so much fun. The brand new Black Widow started first flip and ran perfect all day. I used .008 x 35' lines, next time I will use my 40's. It was very fast. Stayed out on the end of the lines awesome for overheads and everything I could throw at it. Control throw per the plans was just right, nice and responsive, but I am glad I had my Renger 1/2A handle the expo really helps.

Author Topic: Combat Kittens (Read 23455 times)

Jim Roselle

Jim Roselle